Pastor Jon, this was very helpful. For years I tried to be a fixer. When someone was hurting or lost or had a problem my first reaction was to give suggestions on what needed to be done to get the matter solved. In my now 85 years and my husband’s death, I have come to see that fixing is not helpful. What is needed is listening, being there, loving them and more questions than instructions. Your message today reminded me of that. Thank you. I attended Bridge Builders last night. Thank you for supporting this Circle I believe the subject matter needs a place to be discussed in the Church.
This is one reason I'm feeling drawn to the prophetic in this season of my life....not only does it feel good to receive a personal word of encouragement from Father God, it's even more encouraging to give that word to others and build them up and see their countenance change in an instant!!
Personally, I truly believe that our world is literally dying for a word of encouragement and positivity, particularly from our Heavenly Father, that can change their lives!
“Each of them brings nourishment to the church, giving it health, growth and vitality during their time at the church”
This article directly compares members of your church to food you eat (bring in), digest (take everything valuable you can get from them), and then 💩 out what’s left (let them hit the road).
I’m curious to know how many other people don’t like to be compared to a consumable resource that is taken in, used up, and 💩’d out. This stance isn’t acceptable for most people when it comes to the company they work for, or from their significant other in a relationship… Why would the church be any different? 🤷♂️
Hey brother. Thanks for the comment. Sorry if it brought any offense. It was not meant to be anything more than an analogy. When Jesus told peter “get behind me, satan,” I don’t think he was literally referring to him as satan. He was dealing with something operating within Peter that reflected what satan might do. It is the same with this analogy. I am not calling those people 💩
Thanks for being a part of the ReLeader community. All feedback and opinions are more than welcome.
I understand that when Jesus said “Get behind me Satan, he wasn’t actually accusing Peter of being Satan. He was addressing the idea Peter was communicating which was contrary to God’s plan and to the work of Jesus. That is a completely different scenario and not applicable to what Im getting at.
I understand what an analogy is but I think we can both agree that what we call things matters. What we call something, changes how we view it, which changes how we treat it and think about it. Our words affect our thoughts and actions. That’s the whole point behind changing our vocabulary to “circles” and “gatherings” right? I understand that you’re not literally calling people poo or food. 🙃
The problem is why the church would embrace that analogy in the first place and what it really means when it comes to their line of thinking. It’s just a fundamental difference in how we view people. When people at the top have a mentality of “people are consumable resources” it dictates the way you view people in the church, which dictates the way you treat them and talk to them.
This article appears to send an overall message that, since you can’t make everyone happy, why bother doing anything? Let them give all they can give and when they’re used up, it’s just their time to go. The problem isn’t the analogy, it’s the way of thinking behind it.
I’m just one man, with his own opinion, so take it with a grain of salt. Overall I have good things to say about Victory Church, as a whole and your leadership, Pastor. I’m thankful for all you and the leadership at Victory Church have contributed to me and my family in our walk with Jesus.
Thank you, Pastor Jon. Trying to fix or confront the brokenness in people who don't want to be fixed often does more harm to us than help to them. “Don’t waste what is holy on people who are unholy. Don’t throw your pearls to pigs! They will trample the pearls, then turn and attack you."
Is it possible, Pastor, that those of us who struggle, maybe a bit more than others, with the burdens of other people is also related to that thing you brought out on one of the first weeks on here about "EQ?"
I believe my son and I both have a very sensitive "EQ."
I was speaking, just this morning, with a woman who was describing her and her daughter as having a very sensitive "EQ."
The things she was describing resonated with a situation in my life, currently.
A neighbor woman experienced an extremely traumatic event this past weekend. I found out about it on Monday.
It is more than just simple concern and prayer for her, it is as if I FEEL the darkness, the actual event in my spirit! It's heavy!!
I had to really begin to pray for myself lest I be completely undone for the situation.
Maybe that "EQ" thing is a gift of God, but we all need to learn how to handle it????
Thank you, Pastor. You couldn't even imagine how God has taken your comment to go all kinds of different directions the last couple of days, only to circle it right back to where we were in the first place..... how to deal with those who are dealing with a diagnosis with symptoms of needing to "eliminate their toxic waste."
Yes, the analogy of nursing and working with people in certain situations came up in my mind. I could see a direct correlation!
But I think one that I am really leaning into this morning, is even more helpful in this season of my life.
I was pondering on what the difference is between EQ and discernment. I don't know that I can articulate that difference yet.... which, the effort of trying to "picture" what exactly "spiritual discernment " is suppose to "look like," led me to thinking about the "Gifts of the Spirit" and the differences between the lies and "labels" that Satan tries to place on us, in place of those of God's Spirit. (I know, that's a long ways from the topic in your article, but please bare with me, as it circles back around to it)
Which led to... sometimes we are termpted to put on the garments, as the Israelites did in Egypt, of slaves, victims, captives.... and we can, unconsciously, take it on as our identity.... ending in our need for elimination of toxic waste.... right? It's a very "heavy" garment....
Isaiah says that Jesus came to set the captives FREE.
As we walk with Jesus and stay in His Word, and, WITH INTENTIONALITY, we learn to fight with HIS weapons (thankfulness, praise & worship, drawing closer to God through relationship, etc.), it removes the garments of Satan's lies and negative labels, and replaces it all with the "garments of praise."
That garment of praise, Jesus righteousness, gives us one or more of the spiritual gifts.... as we learn to step into that garment of praise and literally operate within those gifts, it changes us from a "toxic waste eliminator" into a giver of life through Jesus Cheist because we are allowing the Holy Spirit to flow through us.
It is always better to give, than to receive....
I think in word pictures and concepts. So as I was processing all this this morning, I was consciously removing that heavy dark cloak of lies and labels, and I was choosing, by an act of my will, to accept Jesus' righteousness and His gifts and make a choice to try my best to learn to operate within those gifts... which takes my eyes off myself and put it onto others,... hopefully, the goal is to emulate the fruits of the Spirit, instead of eliminate toxic waste....
Sorry, for that long disertation, but that's your free sermon for the week... lololol.... I won't charge ya for that one... 😅🤣😂
My goal through this entire thought process is to get in the habit of consciously putting on the garment of praise and living in that!
This article has really been stirring a debate within myself, regarding the subject of healthy boundaries....
About 18 months ago, God began to speak to me about de-throning the "kings" in my life. (Based from Exodus chapter 1).
As I have been walking through that jouney, it has varied from my time and my friends, to dealing with pride.
Because some people are not only very toxic, but some do not WANT help, they simply want me to personally "fix" them without any effort or investment, on their part to seek the REAL SAVIOR, I sensed God directing me to remove myself from 3 of my closest friends, friend who have been there for 30+ years!
Since that time, which has been a process,.... God is bringing twice as many friends into my life, who are much, much healthier for me! The results are HUGE!
I can't be other people's savior, especially if they don't want help bad enough to put any effort into seeking the help from the only one who can meet that need in there life.
I've been on their end, I've lived there too. It was when Jesus helped me realize that the REAL JESUS was the only One that can meet me need that I changed!
No, I have not "thrown them away" rather I pray for them very, very regularly!! That God make them hungry enough for HIM, that they will reach out for their true Savior. I love and care about them and want them to experience LIFE TO THE FULL, just as I have.
I am reading a book for a circle that I am currently attending called, "Translating God." By Shawn Bolz.
It goes right along with the concept of the church being a living organism.
In chapter 2-3, he is relating it as a "living organisms of God's nature surrounding relationships, not just structures."
I love page 36, as it points to some beautiful imagery of this "living organism."
A quote from this book:
"It caused me to want to ask God about His heart and desire for people. I was aware of this supernatural kingdom of God that could make people whole again, that could encourage people in the deepest ways, and could help connect them to who they really were, all at the age of six. This formed my view of relationships and of what is possible in my lifetime, and of who God is as a Father."
He made the point earlier in the book that there is a part of Father God's heart in every single human being on earth.... I thought that was beautiful!!
Just some thoughts about God's "living organism" here on earth that I've been pondering on lately... thought I'd share....
Pastor Jon, this was very helpful. For years I tried to be a fixer. When someone was hurting or lost or had a problem my first reaction was to give suggestions on what needed to be done to get the matter solved. In my now 85 years and my husband’s death, I have come to see that fixing is not helpful. What is needed is listening, being there, loving them and more questions than instructions. Your message today reminded me of that. Thank you. I attended Bridge Builders last night. Thank you for supporting this Circle I believe the subject matter needs a place to be discussed in the Church.
This is one reason I'm feeling drawn to the prophetic in this season of my life....not only does it feel good to receive a personal word of encouragement from Father God, it's even more encouraging to give that word to others and build them up and see their countenance change in an instant!!
Personally, I truly believe that our world is literally dying for a word of encouragement and positivity, particularly from our Heavenly Father, that can change their lives!
Please think about what you’re saying.
“Each of them brings nourishment to the church, giving it health, growth and vitality during their time at the church”
This article directly compares members of your church to food you eat (bring in), digest (take everything valuable you can get from them), and then 💩 out what’s left (let them hit the road).
I’m curious to know how many other people don’t like to be compared to a consumable resource that is taken in, used up, and 💩’d out. This stance isn’t acceptable for most people when it comes to the company they work for, or from their significant other in a relationship… Why would the church be any different? 🤷♂️
Hey brother. Thanks for the comment. Sorry if it brought any offense. It was not meant to be anything more than an analogy. When Jesus told peter “get behind me, satan,” I don’t think he was literally referring to him as satan. He was dealing with something operating within Peter that reflected what satan might do. It is the same with this analogy. I am not calling those people 💩
Thanks for being a part of the ReLeader community. All feedback and opinions are more than welcome.
Thanks for the reply.
I understand that when Jesus said “Get behind me Satan, he wasn’t actually accusing Peter of being Satan. He was addressing the idea Peter was communicating which was contrary to God’s plan and to the work of Jesus. That is a completely different scenario and not applicable to what Im getting at.
I understand what an analogy is but I think we can both agree that what we call things matters. What we call something, changes how we view it, which changes how we treat it and think about it. Our words affect our thoughts and actions. That’s the whole point behind changing our vocabulary to “circles” and “gatherings” right? I understand that you’re not literally calling people poo or food. 🙃
The problem is why the church would embrace that analogy in the first place and what it really means when it comes to their line of thinking. It’s just a fundamental difference in how we view people. When people at the top have a mentality of “people are consumable resources” it dictates the way you view people in the church, which dictates the way you treat them and talk to them.
This article appears to send an overall message that, since you can’t make everyone happy, why bother doing anything? Let them give all they can give and when they’re used up, it’s just their time to go. The problem isn’t the analogy, it’s the way of thinking behind it.
I’m just one man, with his own opinion, so take it with a grain of salt. Overall I have good things to say about Victory Church, as a whole and your leadership, Pastor. I’m thankful for all you and the leadership at Victory Church have contributed to me and my family in our walk with Jesus.
Thank you, Pastor Jon. Trying to fix or confront the brokenness in people who don't want to be fixed often does more harm to us than help to them. “Don’t waste what is holy on people who are unholy. Don’t throw your pearls to pigs! They will trample the pearls, then turn and attack you."
Matthew 7:6 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/mat.7.6.NLT
Don’t throw your pearls to swine. That’s perfect for this topic. I wish I would’ve thought of that. I would’ve put it in the article. 😂😂
Thanks for adding it to the conversation!
Love it when God's truth is captured in a common cliche. It reflects what Paul advised Titus in how to deal with the problems in the Cretan Church:
"Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them." (Titus 3:10)
Thanks for adding to the conversation Art!
Question:
Is it possible, Pastor, that those of us who struggle, maybe a bit more than others, with the burdens of other people is also related to that thing you brought out on one of the first weeks on here about "EQ?"
I believe my son and I both have a very sensitive "EQ."
I was speaking, just this morning, with a woman who was describing her and her daughter as having a very sensitive "EQ."
The things she was describing resonated with a situation in my life, currently.
A neighbor woman experienced an extremely traumatic event this past weekend. I found out about it on Monday.
It is more than just simple concern and prayer for her, it is as if I FEEL the darkness, the actual event in my spirit! It's heavy!!
I had to really begin to pray for myself lest I be completely undone for the situation.
Maybe that "EQ" thing is a gift of God, but we all need to learn how to handle it????
IDK,....
Your thoughts?
Hey Rachel. Hope you're doing well. That could be, or it might be more of a spiritual discernment type of thing.
Thank you, Pastor. You couldn't even imagine how God has taken your comment to go all kinds of different directions the last couple of days, only to circle it right back to where we were in the first place..... how to deal with those who are dealing with a diagnosis with symptoms of needing to "eliminate their toxic waste."
Yes, the analogy of nursing and working with people in certain situations came up in my mind. I could see a direct correlation!
But I think one that I am really leaning into this morning, is even more helpful in this season of my life.
I was pondering on what the difference is between EQ and discernment. I don't know that I can articulate that difference yet.... which, the effort of trying to "picture" what exactly "spiritual discernment " is suppose to "look like," led me to thinking about the "Gifts of the Spirit" and the differences between the lies and "labels" that Satan tries to place on us, in place of those of God's Spirit. (I know, that's a long ways from the topic in your article, but please bare with me, as it circles back around to it)
Which led to... sometimes we are termpted to put on the garments, as the Israelites did in Egypt, of slaves, victims, captives.... and we can, unconsciously, take it on as our identity.... ending in our need for elimination of toxic waste.... right? It's a very "heavy" garment....
Isaiah says that Jesus came to set the captives FREE.
As we walk with Jesus and stay in His Word, and, WITH INTENTIONALITY, we learn to fight with HIS weapons (thankfulness, praise & worship, drawing closer to God through relationship, etc.), it removes the garments of Satan's lies and negative labels, and replaces it all with the "garments of praise."
That garment of praise, Jesus righteousness, gives us one or more of the spiritual gifts.... as we learn to step into that garment of praise and literally operate within those gifts, it changes us from a "toxic waste eliminator" into a giver of life through Jesus Cheist because we are allowing the Holy Spirit to flow through us.
It is always better to give, than to receive....
I think in word pictures and concepts. So as I was processing all this this morning, I was consciously removing that heavy dark cloak of lies and labels, and I was choosing, by an act of my will, to accept Jesus' righteousness and His gifts and make a choice to try my best to learn to operate within those gifts... which takes my eyes off myself and put it onto others,... hopefully, the goal is to emulate the fruits of the Spirit, instead of eliminate toxic waste....
Sorry, for that long disertation, but that's your free sermon for the week... lololol.... I won't charge ya for that one... 😅🤣😂
My goal through this entire thought process is to get in the habit of consciously putting on the garment of praise and living in that!
Thus, living life to the full!
Just my thoughts...
Blessings,
This article has really been stirring a debate within myself, regarding the subject of healthy boundaries....
About 18 months ago, God began to speak to me about de-throning the "kings" in my life. (Based from Exodus chapter 1).
As I have been walking through that jouney, it has varied from my time and my friends, to dealing with pride.
Because some people are not only very toxic, but some do not WANT help, they simply want me to personally "fix" them without any effort or investment, on their part to seek the REAL SAVIOR, I sensed God directing me to remove myself from 3 of my closest friends, friend who have been there for 30+ years!
Since that time, which has been a process,.... God is bringing twice as many friends into my life, who are much, much healthier for me! The results are HUGE!
I can't be other people's savior, especially if they don't want help bad enough to put any effort into seeking the help from the only one who can meet that need in there life.
I've been on their end, I've lived there too. It was when Jesus helped me realize that the REAL JESUS was the only One that can meet me need that I changed!
No, I have not "thrown them away" rather I pray for them very, very regularly!! That God make them hungry enough for HIM, that they will reach out for their true Savior. I love and care about them and want them to experience LIFE TO THE FULL, just as I have.
Blessings,
I am reading a book for a circle that I am currently attending called, "Translating God." By Shawn Bolz.
It goes right along with the concept of the church being a living organism.
In chapter 2-3, he is relating it as a "living organisms of God's nature surrounding relationships, not just structures."
I love page 36, as it points to some beautiful imagery of this "living organism."
A quote from this book:
"It caused me to want to ask God about His heart and desire for people. I was aware of this supernatural kingdom of God that could make people whole again, that could encourage people in the deepest ways, and could help connect them to who they really were, all at the age of six. This formed my view of relationships and of what is possible in my lifetime, and of who God is as a Father."
He made the point earlier in the book that there is a part of Father God's heart in every single human being on earth.... I thought that was beautiful!!
Just some thoughts about God's "living organism" here on earth that I've been pondering on lately... thought I'd share....